It continually astounds me how many people don’t seem to understand the basics of the Schrodinger’s Rapist analogy. Being that my blog has been getting some traffic from people who don’t get it, I thought I’d take a stab at elucidating the idea. If you haven’t read the original post, go there now, and I’ll wait here while you finish.
Okay, good. Now, the Not-Really-Getting-It responses to this analogy are generally along the lines of:
- You think all men are rapists! (incorrect)
- You think all men are potential rapists! (correct or incorrect, depending on what you actually mean)
The “all men are potential rapists” bit is not saying what many people seem to think. It’s not saying that you in particular, Dear Reader Who Would Never Rape Anyone, might rape someone. It’s saying that an unknown person in public that you have no information about could potentially be a rapist. That is what you, Dear Reader, are when you approach a stranger in a public place. To that stranger, you’re an unknown. You know yourself out to ten significant figures, but a random stranger can guess out to one or two at best.
Imagine a friend asks you to play a game of Russian roulette. Serious Russian roulette, with a six-shooter and a single bullet. If you say no because you don’t want to die, is it appropriate for your friend to object by arguing, “What, do you think all of the chambers are loaded?” Of course not, because that’s not the point, is it? The point is that one of them is loaded, so each turn of the game you play could potentially kill you.
In this Russian roulette scenario, you, Reader Who Would Never Rape Anyone, are an empty bullet chamber. But not all of the chambers are empty, and on a given turn, the people playing the game have no idea whether the chamber that’s lined up to fire is you or one with a bullet in it. Until the gun is fired, Schrodinger’s Bullet. This is analogous to the type of situation Schrodinger’s Rapist is describing.
If you still think the most reasonable response to Schrodinger’s Rapist is that it’s ridiculous because not all men are rapists, I have made a list of other arguments you ought to be comfortable making, to illustrate the point.
- You’re about to have sex with a new partner. That partner asks you to get tested for STIs beforehand. You respond with, “What the hell? Not everyone has an STI, you know!”
- You get bitten by a wild animal. Your friend suggests you get rabies shots just to be safe. You respond with, “What the fuck? Not all wild animals have rabies, you know!”
- Your friend advises you to wear a seatbelt. You respond with, “What the shit? It’s not like you’re going to get in a crash every time you drive, you know!”
- You want to have sex with a new partner, they want birth control to be used. You respond with, “Seriously, do you think women get pregnant every time they have sex?!”
- Your friend suggests you get a flu shot. You respond with, “Jesus, do you think everyone gets the flu every year?!”
Does it make sense now? Schrodinger’s Rapist is not an argument of personal accusation, it’s an argument of statistics and precautionary measures. It’s an argument from trying to make the safest decision while not having all of the information that would be ideal to have. Not everyone has an STI, but a new partner could potentially have an STI, which is why people get tested. Not every wild animal has rabies, but the one that bit you is potentially a carrier of rabies, and it’s better safe than dead. Not every car trip ends in a crash, but every car trip could potentially end in a crash, which is why you wear a seatbelt. Not everyone gets the flu every season, but there is a chance that you could get it, so you get inoculated.
If everyone could see a random stranger on the street and just know, “Oh, that one’s not a rapist”, then the whole analogy would break down. The same way Russian roulette wouldn’t make sense if you could look inside the gun before pulling the trigger. Obviously in the real world, though, we don’t magically know who’s who. A random stranger cannot magically tell that you, Dear Reader, are not dangerous, the same as they cannot tell which chamber has the bullet, which animals have rabies, which car trip will end in a crash, etc, etc. In short, the salient point is that just because you know you’re not a rapist doesn’t mean everyone else does*.
Now, this blogger entreats you, implores you, can we at least move on to criticisms that actually demonstrate an understanding of what they’re arguing against? They don’t even have to be good ones, I promise, I just want them to be a nonzero level of relevant.
For a discussion of the claim that Schrödinger’s Rapist doesn’t make sense because most rapes are committed by someone the victim knows, or because rape isn’t common enough to justify this type of risk assessment, see the follow-up to this post, For Those Who Don’t Understand Schrodinger’s Rapist, Part Two.
* Which we hopefully all picked up back in the concrete-operational stage, if Piaget is to be believed, yes?
Sidenote: Many comments on this page have not been approved. For the curious, there is a commenting page that explains why some comments do not get approved.
It tells me that you are ruled by fear, and that makes me sad for you. That is a choice you make. Everyone is a potential (rapist|mugger|serial killer) and since you have chosen to make that a thing you focus on, you suffer for that. If you focus on the things that are low risks (and yes, low risk – even if you accept every stat out there it is around one in 300 – 500 men who are rapists).
Seeing a stranger in the streets would be silly. Stranger rape is incredibly rare, and tends to happen in very specific circumstances (similar to ones where muggings happen). Sure, it has happened in bright lit public spaces, but the odds are infinitesimal.
If you read my blog you will quickly see that I have been on the receiving end of sexual violence multiple times in my life, and it would be easy for me to embrace an attitude of fear similar to the one illustrated in the schrodingers rapist posts – but I prefer to actually live my life.
Right. I also never wear a seatbelt because I prefer to actually live my life and not be ruled by fear.
That is the most ridiculously condescending thing I have ever heard.
Who gave you the authority to prescribe the proper way of dealing with fear and trauma? Who are you to be “sad” for those of us who don’t have your mental wherewithal and to claim that we don’t “live our lives”?
“If you read my blog you will….”
In that case, would you mind leaving a link to your blog love.
You just absolutely don’t get the point. I’ve never been sexually assaulted but at least 4 women within my extended family have been. I always assess situations exactly as the original post described and I can not imagine a better, more logical way to explain what it feels like to have a looming (even if unnecessary in the situation) threat of danger. I am married with two small children and I STILL keep an eye on our surroundings when alone with them in a parking lot or other vulnerable space.
No. The numbers matter here. A random male might be a serial killer, but there are at most about 500 serial killers active in the country at any given time. (The FBI estimates more like fifty.) There are a hundred million adult males in the US, which means that any given adult male has a one in two hundred thousand chance (and probably more like one in two million) of being a serial killer. It’s unlikely.
On the other hand, roughly one in ten men in the United States is a rapist. (The vast majority of them use coercion, alcohol and instrumental violence, and attack friends or acquaintances.)
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
So the Rapist Gun has nine empty chambers, and the Serial Killer Gun has at least two hundred thousand. That’s what makes the difference.
grendelkhan, where do you get the 1 in 10 number? The article you posted claims the vast majority of rape is done by repeat offenders and they are a much smaller percent of the population than 1 in 10.
I’d say the major problem I have with this is that it is an abuse of an analogy, as in, it is ignorant of the science. The quantum principle is not just about perception, but an actual state the cat is in. It is an attribute of the cat, not the observer. So, if you are defending this concept by saying it is all about perception, then it is a faulty analogy. If you use “Schrodinger’s X” correctly, you are in fact saying that until confirmed one way or another, all men are in fact rapists/notrapists. So the analogy is highly problematic, and just asking to be misunderstood.
That’s fair. I’m not sure I think it makes it as problematic as you think it does, but it certainly is a mangling of the actual concepts involved. I think the reason the analogy still sticks for a lot of people (myself included), is that the Schrodinger’s Cat concept is so often misinterpreted to mean roughly what it’s being used to mean for this analogy, that the incorrect interpretation is still a reasonably intuitive (if also admittedly fundamentally incorrect) analogy to draw. That is, it’s using a misunderstanding of the principle to illustrate a point, but it’s a misunderstanding so common that it actually does help illustrate the point in spite of being inaccurate.
I would point out how you just said “I don’t care about your reality” (in different words) just now, but I feel like you already know that; and everyone using it wrong is a weak excuse.
To tall to your previous examples, we take risks like this every day:
We eat at restaurants knowing that we stand a reasonable risk of getting sick from pathogens or improper handling.
We leave valuables in our cars, knowing that a broken window could let someone take our car from us, not to mention it’s valuables.
We let our children interact with other children, knowing that child-child rape is the most common.
We make these decisions, leave our trust in others on a daily basis. Thinking thabecause I say “hi” when you have your arms crossed makes me even slightly more likely to rape you is akin to not being willing to eat at a restaurant with a blond waitress because you think they are more likely to get germs in your food. It’s offensive, unfair and silly.
In a given day, there are plenty of risks that we decide to take, and plenty of risks that we decide not to take. The fact that you can give examples of risks that we decide to take is not an argument that the type of risks I’m talking about are risks people should decide to take, unless your argument is “Sometimes we take risks, therefore all risks are reasonable to take”. If you want to argue against the necessity of avoiding the particular risks that Schrödinger’s rapist is discussing, I suggest you read my second post about it first, which is linked at the bottom of this post in bold letters, and addresses that exact issue.
What does it seem to be saying if you interpret it correctly? It rather…doesn’t make sense in my brain if I try to interpret it “correctly”, so I’m curious how you think people would interpret it if they were thinking of Schrodinger’s Cat correctly.
Schrodinger’s Cat is meant to illustrate the problematic nature of Copenhagen’s interpretation of Quantum Mechanics -that the integrity of observations is influenced by the bias of the observer.
Someone with a strong background in science would then conclude that Starling is either pulling a Poe or throwing around vocabulary with which she isn’t fluent.
My question was more, how might they misunderstand what she was trying to say?Because that’s really what I’m trying to understand. I get that the vocabulary is technically wrong, though I think the popularity of the piece shows that she’s fluent in the colloquial understanding of the term, which differs from a scientifically accurate understanding, but is nevertheless apparently useful for illustrating the point. If the colloquial interpretation didn’t resonate with so many people, then the Schrodinger’s Rapist piece wouldn’t be linked all the time. Anyway, more or less, I’m not concerned with whether people think her science is wrong, I’m concerned with how people might be misunderstanding the analogy she is intending to make (potentially, I suppose, at times, as a result of the science being wrong), because that seems to be the primary problem for people objecting to it.
I think a title such as “Schrodinger’s Encounter” would be more appropriate. Since the original thought experiment is set to imply neither that the cat is dead or alive – this is uncertain. Having a title “Schrodinger’s Rapist” implies from the outset that the stranger *IS* a rapist.
I think that the popularity is due to the piece appealing to the fear within an individual with sympathy and emotion. Stats can be misleading. Sometimes the gun may have 6, 9 or 200 empty rounds.
Lots of people are truly reckless with personal safety, in various ways they prefer not to think about. Whilst they focus on issues highlighted to them by media or close personal friend/relations experiences.
I am not suggesting that anyone disregard personal safety at all, more to the point I think we should all consider personal safety (much of it being awareness of those around and near you) — increasingly I see people, either sex, walking down the road whilst reading (or otherwise viewing) an ipad. In previous years I would see people engrossed in something on a smart phone.
I do consider all aspects of my (and my sons when in his company) safety when outside. Beyond my frontdoor I view the world as totally beyond my control. Violence or disorder may occur at any point out there.
Also rape is something that can target anyone, 1 in 10 victims are male. In two thirds of cases the assailant is not a stranger. FBI changed the definition of rape Jan 2012. I have heard of a case in Canada in which 4 women raped a 19 year old male.
My view is that we all need to be more considerate of each other. Also we are becoming increasingly alienated and paranoid.
Which is why it should be “re-branded” as “Starling’s Rapist” in order to stop the confusion of those of us familiar with the Cat and stop dragging a physicist who had nothing to do with it into it.
>I suppose, at times, as a result of the science being wrong, because that seems to be the primary problem for people objecting to it.
1.That and her probabilities are flawed, as others have pointed out. It’s more analogous to whether you would get a rabies shot (itself potentially fatal) before being bit by a dog,
2.And that women who sincerely offer personal views of men that conflict with this one narrative are silenced with verbal abuse and banishment. :/
Yeah, I’m going to have to ask you to cite both of those claims. Bearing in mind that there is a significant difference between discussing one’s own experiences/views in general and using discussion of those experiences/views to invalidate those of others. The latter is, I hope we can agree, a justifiably bannable offense. The former you’ll have to provide examples of.
RTBD – Women who disagree with Styles rendition of the date ARE telling you that there experience is different! From MsQContinuum – a biologist, who’s post was deleted (though you can still see it in the comment history if you go to r/atheismplus/comments
“Here is the direct quote from the original blog shapely prose, “Now, you want to become acquainted with a woman you see in public. ‘The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.’
“But wait! I don’t want that, either!”
Well, no. But do you think about it all the time? Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones? Because, for women, it is.”
Which women? Not me.”
And from Enda169 of Germany who’s post was deleted this morning
“It seems to propose, that we actively imagine danger everywhere and that we should never trust anyone over anything. It seems to encourage people to first assume the worst case scenario and act accordingly to be safe. ”
Ironically you are taking the position of defending the stories of the disenfranchised, but only allowing them one narrow pre-selected story. You really should watch that TED.
The point of Schrodinger’s Rapist is not, “Everyone should do this”, or “Everyone does this”, it’s “Many of us do this, here’s why, and here’s why you should respect our decision to do so.” That other people don’t follow similar guidelines is orthogonal to the point, which is why it’s so often seen as derailing (Enda69 is also blatantly misrepresenting what the post is saying, hence their banning). No one is suggesting that everyone ought to have exactly the same precautionary standards. In fact, the author explicitly mentions an example of different women being comfortable with different levels of risk when she mentions women who have experienced sexual assault.
I am perfectly aware that there are people who don’t follow the level of precaution described in the post. So, quite clearly, is the author. I’m actually quasi-dating someone who isn’t nearly as cautious as I would feel inclined to be in similar situations. I have no problem with her deciding on a different set of standards. That she makes that decision, however, does not defeat the point of the post. It’s orthogonal to it. There’s a reason why the author bolded “I set my own risk tolerance”, and not something like, “This is what everyone’s risk tolerance is/should be.”
You can argue that she should’ve said ‘many women’, rather than ‘women’”, in that one part of the post where she wasn’t using only “I” statements, and I suppose that’s a reasonable nitpick. It seems to me that she clearly acknowledges that standards vary, though.
One of my favorite TEDs and relevant to the discussion:
The Danger of a Single Story
http://blog.ted.com/2009/10/07/the_danger_of_a/
The presumption of the story is “The sun is out and how much UV you expose yourself to is up to you.” What the other women are saying – the one’s who posts were removed at least is “It’s cloudy.” A very different thing.
Unless other women are arguing that risk levels are in fact, zero (which I sincerely hope they are not), the “I set my own risk tolerance” is perfectly relevant.
No, I’ll leave you to mull the corner you’ve backed into!
See how annoying it is when people claim to have won an argument without, you know, even saying how?
So here’s where you explain your reasoning, or your comments end up unapproved for the future. I let this slide when you did the Vague Nonspecific Admonishment thing on the “Ten Guilty Trolls” post. I’m not going to let it slide again.
” If the colloquial interpretation didn’t resonate with so many people, then the Schrodinger’s Rapist piece wouldn’t be linked all the time. ”
Is that not an “appeal to popularity” fallacy?
Or an Idol of the Theater if we want to go Baconian?
It’s an appeal to using the popular interpretations of terms where they are a useful means of communicating a potentially complex idea (obviously, given that I wrote this post, the communication isn’t perfect, but also, obviously, given the widespread use of the post, the communication is very effective for a large number of people). The Schrodinger analogy isn’t being used to prove that a perspective is right, it’s being used to describe what the perspective is. There’s a huge difference between “Schrodinger, therefore I am right”, and “think about Schrodinger to understand what my position is in the first place”.
As pointed out and agreed in this thread Schrödinger is being misused in the context of “Starling’s Rapist”…which might be why you’re so astounded so many people “don’t get it”. This will continue to happen so long as Schrödinger is being invoked…and VH makes a good point in my opinion…perhaps more of an “appeal to authority” fallacy.
I understand Starling’s Rapist now, provided I’m supposed to understand this is *her* experience and she hasn’t presumed to speak for all women…and could maybe be expanded to include a factor that operates within human society as everyone “assesses risk” right? Some people have different variables than others.
“If the colloquial interpretation didn’t resonate with so many people, then the Schrodinger’s Rapist piece wouldn’t be linked all the time.”
This is the value of pseudo-science rhetoric. It makes people feel authoritative, because they are using sciency words. See: Deepak Chopra.
Ignoring science to make rhetorical points is exactly what a) contributes to misunderstandings, b) gives your opponents solid ammunition against you and c) leads to absurd conclusions down the line. It’s bad, in every way.
I’ve read the article and your explanation of it. You miss a very important point. Let me quote the main points I see:
Let me start out by assuring you that I understand you are a good sort of person. … Don’t rape
The advice for women to be careful is reasonable. The advice to men to be aware how their actions are interpreted is reasonable. The advice to Don’t rape is insane.
About 99% of the male population has never raped anyone. They know it’s wrong to rape. The post insinuates that men are so fucking stupid that they need to be told in a blog to not rape women. This is treating the normal male as a rape-prone insane criminal, who suddenly can become a “good guy” after reading a blog saying don’t rape.
It’s insane.
I could write a response about jews. Hey, I like jews. Some of my best friends are jews. But jews should be careful about being in business, because people are afraid of getting cheated by jews. So I’ll be nice, and tell the jews don’t cheat people.
It’s condescending and naive. It is a “feel good” article which blames the normal male for the actions of the rare violent criminal. Why not find out what makes the criminal tick, and go after that?
No, it’s easier to go after the average guy. I’m sure he’s nice, and he won’t get offended if I tell him he’s a violent sadistic bastard, who needs a polite blog post to learn how to be a human being.
Fuck that.
I very much doubt she meant to imply that everyone needs that advice. I’m a guy, and I didn’t interpret it as patronizing at all. Not because I think I need to be told not to rape, but because I recognize that part of the battle against a culture that is far more permissive of rape than it ought to be is challenging the elements of our culture that make it that way. Sometimes that means restating that idea that rape is bad even when it seems trivially obvious. I know people who could stand to absorb that advice, actually. People who were, at one point, friends of mine, who have committed sexual assault, and acted in retrospect like it wasn’t a big deal.
I very much doubt she meant to imply that everyone needs that advice.
Except that’s what she said. Four points of directed at everyone, and a fifth point… clearly directed at everyone.
… I recognize that part of the battle against a culture that is far more permissive of rape than it ought to be …
Nonsense. A serial false accuser made a claim against one of the most powerful men in the world (Dominique Strauss-Kahn). She was immediately believed, and his career was immediately destroyed.
Rape is taken very seriously by our society. I find it reprehensible and immoral to claim otherwise.
The giving of generalized advice does not imply that no one already knows or follows that advice.
“Nonsense. A serial false accuser made a claim against one of the most powerful men in the world (Dominique Strauss-Kahn). She was immediately believed, and his career was immediately destroyed.”
Anecdotal evidence. Fancy.
“Rape is taken very seriously by our society. I find it reprehensible and immoral to claim otherwise.”
Yeah, I’m not going to go into explaining the entirely of the manifestations of and evidence for rape culture right now. Google it. Come back when you’ve educated yourself.
Here, I’ll help:
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2009-18375-000/
http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=592863286706573;res=IELFSC
http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/16/10/1028.short
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2007-08175-002 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-2311.00045/abstract
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/stlpl23&div=11&id=&page=
http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/19/4/406.short
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02732173.1993.9982040
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01639625.1983.9967622
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19459398
http://knowledge.sagepub.com/view/victimologyandcrime/n295.xml
You’re in the moderation queue until you smarten up.
“You’re in the moderation queue until you smarten up.”
Oh, so much for inviting discussion, I suppose…or was there an ad hom in there I missed?
Also which of those book chapters/articles are you specifically using as proof of this pervasive “rape culture” as some of those are treatment recommendations and other things. (I do have full-text access for most journals, so I can follow along.)
Or you can moderate me, too, and just continue to be “astounded” by how many people “don’t get” Starling’s Rapist and ignore the disingenuous nature of your discussion invitation.
1) Dear me, I didn’t realize all of the comments above didn’t count as discussion.
2) Discussion is one thing; obstinate stupidity is not something I feel like dealing with. When someone makes such a trivially stupid error as arguing that a substantiated anecdote is not, in fact, an anecdote (especially in the context of denying a phenomenon with mountains of evidence, and suggesting that implying the phenomenon exists is immoral (how’s that for encouraging conversation?)), I tend to assume they’re not engaging honestly. My blog, my rules.
3) Victim blaming is part of rape culture. If you’re going to deny it also, you could at the very least demonstrate a passing familiarity with the concept.
4) You are being entirely too silly. Ask for moderation and ye shall receive.
Ooh! That last one I don’t even know where to begin. Spam queue it is!
Here’s one link that will work that you clearly need, though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
“About 99% of the male population has never raped anyone.”
yet, a shit-ton of the male population seems to think it’s totally fine to follow me when i’m walking home at night, grab my arm while propositioning me (again, when i’m walking alone at night), call me “a fucking cunt” for telling them to fuck off and stop touching me, and menacingly tell me they know where i live.
it happens when i go for a walk in the evening. it happens when i go for a walk in broad daylight. in my experience, if a guy asks me what time it is and i actually answer him, he’s probably going to follow that up with some harassment. and you want me to have sympathy for that one guy who doesn’t feel entitled to my attention? nope.
and don’t bother replying with, “oh, well, street harassment isn’t rape so your point is invalid.” my point is why should i be sympathetic towards strange men when most of them harass me? why is it “insane” to think that any one of them could rape me? they feel ok grabbing me, they don’t let go when i tell them to, and they think their desire to touch me and talk to me trumps my right to be left alone.
I think Schrodinger’s Rapist is a fabulous post that really should be required reading.
I believe that nitpicking about using Schrodinger’s Cat as an example of this nature is distracting and ridiculous since he himself called it an example of “…very burlesque cases.” Burlesque in this case meaning a parody or comically exaggerated imitation of something.
See:
http://www.stp.dias.ie/~dorlas/Papers/QMSTATUS.pdf
Page 9 middle paragraph.
Personally I believe that most attempts to proposition strangers are a way to combat personal insecurity. As Brit comedian Mark Steel put it, a lot of boys grow up believing that being gay is the worst thing you can be, so they try to prove themselves not-gay by either having loads of fights, or relentlessly hitting on every woman they see with no regard to time, place or reaction.
If people who know you, who have seen you every day of your life, who watched you grow up, who have been with you for years and years, who know you best can still misinterpret your actions, words, phrases, behaviors, what makes you think that a stranger will properly interpret your attempt to initiate a mating ritual as a nice-guy move and not a danger?
I think there is a difference between threat assessment for an individual and what should be reasonable expectations of a society. As an individual it is imperative to mitigate threats proportional to their risk. The best example of this is if one is worried about dying from assault but the individual still smokes, a re-look at the statistics is in order. From there risk reduction begins to look like conservative patriarcal advice. Don’t drink (regardless of gender), wear clothes you can fight in, be armed, be trained, and avoid situations after dark.
However, there is the large gap between what is optimal for an individual to remain as safe as possible and what are reasonable expectations of a citizen of a civilized ssociety. The problem is moving from the absolute safest lifestyle the outward runs into the victim blaming wall.
I think both of these blogposts were very easy to understand. They were informative and funny at the same time. And that’s coming from a straight cis man. What I don’t really see how one could fail to see your point. But I guess some people are uncomfortable ransacking their own past behaviour.
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Great post, but man, what on earth is with these comments? Did this post get submitted to r/mensrights or something? Sheesh.
Hahaha, yeah. It may have been, I’m not sure. Good practice for moderating, I guess. And it gave me an excuse to make the graphic on the comments page, which I have to admit I’m really entertained by
Schrodinger’s Maneater is not about “all women are evil.”
It is not even about “all women are potentially evil.” All women are, in fact, potentially evil, in much the same sense as all men are potentially evil, and all brunettes are potentially evil. All people are potentially evil, because evil is not a function of anything about a person except the fact that they do evil things.
It is about “a very significant proportion of men will, when you approach them, be assessing whether you are going to be That Crazy Bitch…”
…That Crazy Bitch makes up only a tiny percentage of women. However, she has poisoned the well for everyone else.
I think a lot of women underestimate the fear most men have around relationships of any kind. For instance, I am the happiest little stud you could ever hope to meet. However, I would never date or have sex with a woman whom a friend, or a friend of a friend, didn’t vouch for, because she might lie about being on birth control and ding me for 18 years paying for a child I didn’t want, or cry rape the next morning when her boyfriend demands to know where she was all night, or only be after my wallet, or take me for everything I have or care about–including my kids–when she’s done with me. On a rational level, I know the chance of me getting screwed over in some way because I slept with or entered a relationship with a woman is about as likely as me…well, actually, it’s getting likelier all the time. Huh. I mean, on an emotional level, I want intimacy with a woman, but my powers of observation and sense of self-preservation associates “sexual involvement with women, whether I know them or not”, with “getting fucked over, maybe for life.”
It’s actually pretty demonstrative of the point that this is the analogy you chose.
Schrodinger’s Rapist is about a judgment call women have to make when they decide to go out in public. You analogy is about a judgment call you have to make when you’ve decided you’d like to date or have sex with someone.
Schrodinger’s Rapist is about why you should be understanding when women don’t want to engage you when you’re a stranger in a public place. Your analogy is about understanding why you might not want to date or fuck particular women.
Of these scenarios, which one do you think happens more often: going out in public, or wanting to date someone? Of these scenarios, which one do you think happens more often: a woman being accosted by a man they have no interest in talking to for all of the reasons stated in the original post (to be fair, even without the reasons in the original post, it’s perfectly reasonable to not want to engage with a random stranger in a public place no matter what your gender), or wanting to date or fuck someone?
Of these scenarios, which do you think would be more debilitating: deciding not to go out in public, or deciding not to date people?
Additionally, consider the fact that being accosted by someone in public is, pretty much by definition, an interaction with someone you have no information about, and the risk of it leading to some negative experiences starts as soon as the conversation does, and increases from there. Deciding whether or not you want to date or fuck someone is something that for the most part happens after you’ve had enough interaction to assess compatibility. I wouldn’t begrudge you at all deciding that dating or fucking random strangers might be a bad idea. If you don’t trust any women even after getting to know them reasonably well, then despite the fact that I might think you were being overcautious, that’s still your prerogative, and it’s still reasonable to expect people to consider it your prerogative, whether or not they, personally, think it’s a proportionate response to the level of risk.
I don’t think your analogy is illustrating a situation that is more than superficially similar, but even if it were, I would still consider it your prerogative to make those decisions about dating or engaging with people, the same as I think it’s reasonable to expect us all to consider it womens’ prerogative whether they want to engage socially with strangers who try to engage them in public places.
I never claimed it was an exact analogy. The big difference between Schrodinger’s Rapist and my rewrite is that my rewrite is not based on sexism. My rewrite acknowledges that only a tiny percentage of women commit the wrongs I described above, and does not hold all women somehow responsible for the behavior of a few. What my rewrite does, however, is address the reality that should a woman turn out to be That Crazy Bitch, she will be aided and abetted by the legal system–both family and criminal–in her wrongdoings.
It is very difficult to tell what your argument is here. Your thesis statement appears to be along the lines of “Schrodinger’s Rapist is sexist and my analogy is not”, and you appear to be trying to supply supporting details for that thesis but failing to connect them back to the it in a way that explains the points you’re trying to make with them. Frankly, I’m not sure. If you’d like a response, rewrite and comment again, and spend more time connecting your ideas so that it’s clear what your points are and how, specifically, they reinforce your thesis.
You can see how ridiculous this is by replacing “men” with a race then using a stereotype.
For example Schrodinger’s Blacks, I may be rude or seem hostile towards African Americans because they are a disproportionate percentage of the prison population and are therefore more likely to be criminals and harm me in some way.
Everyone here will scream racist but this Schrodinger’s Rapist is at its core sexist. Perhaps you all should be more terrified of your friends and family since most rapes are committed by someone you know.
Before everyone jumps on the your racist bandwagon please not I picked what I felt would be the most striking example.
You could also use Schrodinger’s Germans.
Because in the past Germans committed genocide against numerous races I am terrified of them and it affects my interactions with anyone of German ancestry.
This “theory” is nothing more than profiling caused by an individual’s irrational fear of another group. If you are actually afraid of interacting with other individuals to the point that it affects your daily life you should seek psychological help because it is a phobia.
This conversation has been had. I refer you first to Crommunist’s excellent post on this very objection:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2012/01/16/shuffling-feet-a-black-mans-view-on-schroedingers-rapist/
And second to the conversation that I had when I first linked this post on reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheismplus/comments/11oz5s/for_those_who_dont_understand_schrodingers_rapist/c6q5a9b
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I only recently stumbled across a post on Schrodinger’s rapist and found this blog when I was trying to learn more … and have kept coming back to your post which I particularly like. That especially includes the alternate scenarios you listed. The KateHarding site comments had a good one along the lines of “I’m such a nice person so why can’t I invite this little kid back to my house to look at my puppy?”
I’m also surprised with how much trouble people have accepting this concept. I also feel like people are over-analyzing this thing to death (your and Adam’s comments on why it’s not the most important thing in the world if the Schrodinger analogy isn’t accurate make more sense than when I’ve tried to explain that) when all that really needs to be taken from it is something like: a stranger has no way of knowing whether you are a “nice person”, don’t approach strangers/break off the conversation if they seem disinterested, a man approaching a woman may be scary to some because he is likely bigger and stronger.
At least, that’s how I took it as I have never once thought “this person could be a rapist/mugger/serial killer/etc”. I also understand how a woman (anyone) who has experienced sexual violence (any violence) may be particularly vigilant and have those specific thoughts. Only if I find the person suspicious might I start analyzing why and what my options are. I can’t imagine anyone not acting on their vibes/intuition/etc around a stranger, I suspect they just haven’t given it thought unless maybe they work in law enforcement or have been assaulted. I find the idea absurd that this is “living my life in fear” when I imagine most people do EXACTLY THE SAME THING when approached by strangers, at least in some circumstances.
If I have tried giving increasingly obvious signals that I’m not interested (pointedly staring back at my book, putting headphones back on, walking away, each after only nodding or a one-word answer) only to have someone continue talking, I’m now faced with forced small talk or asking to be left alone. At this point, I’m probably not afraid of the stranger but they are being effin’ rude. I’d like to make clear here that I have never once said anything less polite than “Sorry, I’m really busy,” unless the person is out of line- explicit comments or touching me. Still, I have been called a bitch, racist or even a tease if I had accidentally made the briefest eye-contact before he approached. Sometimes, it’s just easier to chat for a few minutes but of course, then I’m stuck making up excuses not to give them my number.
Anyway, sorry for the novel and the “late” comment but for reasons I mentioned and others I can’t articulate, this is one of my favorite posts on this topic so far.
Thanks very much
In retrospect, the one other thing that I could’ve spent more time on is the idea that once someone has decided to ignore your signals that you’re uninterested in conversation, they’ve already identified themselves as someone more likely to be unpleasant to engage with (which may mean actually dangerous or just uncomfortable/annoying) than the average stranger. Every now and then someone comments about how the percentage of actually dangerous people in the population is so low that being nervous about people in general is absurd. But of course in reality (and Starling touches on this in the original post), anyone who has demonstrated that they don’t respect someone’s preference for having conversation or not has already identified themselves with a higher risk category of people than the average stranger (the category of people who don’t respect or don’t perceive at least some of other people’s boundaries).
Anyway, now I’m sort of starting to write you a novel back that isn’t even exactly related to what you are saying, so I’ll just finish with thanks again for the comment
That’s really more of a novella if we’re comparing it to my post
Thanks for the reply and I agree 100% with that word for word (and it’s totally related because a lot of what you say is the point I was going for in my last big paragraph, I just can’t explain anything without telling it as an anecdote).
Anyway, off to read some more of your posts. A few caught my eye after I posted the other day but I only had time to skim. I wasn’t expecting a reply since one I noticed was the repetitive motion pain/issues with typing you’re dealing with, so thanks again.
The argument ‘All anything are potential rapists, therefore you must be cautious’ is necessarily false. ‘All people are potential rapists’ is vacuous (or ontologically false, take your pick). ‘All men are potential rapists’ is a fortiori vacuous. ‘All people holding a predisposition to rape are potential rapists’ is trivially true, but the only claim you can reasonably make. And because it is impossible to know which people hold a predisposition to rape at first glace, it is impossible to make a claim of any kind based on first glances. Therefore, any argument that makes a contrary claim to that which has been laid out, without legitimate refutation of above premises, is false by necessity. QED.
Holy shit, “QED”! I’d best just pack up my blog and go home, then!
Congratulations on making exactly the mistake in understanding that I wrote this post about. That takes an impressive lack of reading comprehension. Even if that weren’t the case, you’re forgetting this: http://researchtobedone.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/for-those-who-dont-understand-schrodingers-rapist/#comment-640
QED! BBQ! LSD! NIDDK!
You’re a fucking smug self-important fool. Any time anybody disagrees with you (and given that horrifying article we’re talking about, they sure as hell ought to), you say their argument is invalid, call them names and moderate them. Your “research” amounts to masturbation. True research works toward a conclusion rather than assuming one, as you do, you disgusting cretin.
Congratulations! You get to have your comment approved just so that other people can see what kinds of comments I’m not approving and judge for themselves whether or not they’re worth even a moment of serious consideration. Sad to say, there are more like this, guys. Though, to paraphrase another excellent blogger, I have to say I’m pleased that the intellectually bankrupt so consistently fail to find commonality with me.
I particularly enjoyed how you were all, “and also you call people names, you disgusting cretin!” I’m going to have to take the irony center of my brain in for repairs later this week, and it’s entirely your fault.
This applies to you: http://researchtobedone.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/comment-policy.jpg
I completely understand the reasoning you stated and the Russian Roulette analogy makes it clear. The only thing I cannot understand though is according to the numbers the “stranger danger” phenomenon is backwards. Most violence against women happens by those they are on a first name basis with. When it comes to violence against children overwhelmingly it is the parents or families responsible for the abuse. Why is someone nervous of a stranger when it is they’re partner or family that is most likely to harm them, and statistically speaking it is the mothers themselves that are most likely to harm the child. The stranger is the one who will be coming to the rescue or dialing 911 to save the woman from her partner or the child from their parent. My only grudge against the Schrodinger’s Rapist idea is that it doesn’t fit with any of the statistics on what actually takes place when violence occurs.
First, see this comment: http://researchtobedone.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/for-those-who-dont-understand-schrodingers-rapist/#comment-640
A stranger who accosts someone has already identified himself as a member of a relatively high-risk group of people compared to the average stranger.
Second, see this comment: http://researchtobedone.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/for-those-who-dont-understand-schrodingers-rapist/#comment-499
The risk of negative consequences from engaging with a stranger do not begin and end at rape. They start much sooner than the point at which rape might happen, generally.
Third, how do you think people go from not being on a first name basis to being on a first name basis? See one of the links in that second comment — the rapist in the account was met as a stranger, but obviously didn’t stay a stranger. If a person doesn’t understand or doesn’t respect a woman’s right to not be bothered in a public place, they have identified themselves as a relatively higher risk person for any negative consequence of interaction, whether it be rape, or just freaking someone out, or just being an inconsiderate person. The more extended the interaction gets, the higher the risk of worse consequences.
I have read the comments and I don’t think the point is being addressed. Interactions with strangers and interactions with relationships are of course separate types of events. Obviously one leads to the other and there is also a difference between the two, I don’t think anyone would argue that. Where the Schrodinger’s Rapist argument falls apart in my mind is in the numbers. By using the example of Roulette with a broader picture, if a stranger is 1 bullet in 100, then a partner is 1 in 10 or much smaller since you have very few partners in proportion to strangers met. When it comes to violence against children it is much worse and equally skewed. My question to the Schrodinger’s Rapist argument is that why is it only applied to strangers when the threat is vastly in favor of any harm to you coming from someone you already know. To repeat, the stranger is the one who will save you.from your partner, or your child from you in most cases of abuse. Your first, second, and third points define interpersonal and unknown threats but says nothing to my original question.
Let me clarify what I’m saying with an example. The most vulnerable I have ever been was when all I had was a motorcycle and no insurance. I had to leave the house of course but was is a very poor position for safety concerns. The logic of Schrodinger’s Rapist worked very well for me and kept me safe. Every car was a potential hazard to my life and well being. The people closest to me being the greatest potential hazard and the people on the peripheral the least. Of course some random person could drive their car off an overpass and land on top of me unawares but it was too remote a possibility to worry about. Everything and everyone is always a potential threat, the likelihood of being harmed begins with the people and object closest to you and reducing exponentially the further away from yourself you get. The basic idea behind Schrodinger’s Rapist is solid, in three and a half years on a motorcycle I did not get into an accident, when it comes to the stranger danger phenomenon though it’s application is false. The logic is sound but what it lacks is perspective and without that perspective it is next to useless.
Can we assume that a stranger who accosts you in a public place and ignores any signals you might send out to indicate that you’re not interested in conversation is unlikely to be someone who it is pleasant to interact with? It’s almost tautological — you’re not interested in interacting, and this person has decided to interact with you regardless. Frankly, I don’t think it should take the possibility of rape to make it not okay to try and engage someone who obviously isn’t interested in engaging. And in any event, the type of people the original post was addressing, it seemed to me, are the type of people who are engaging specifically with an eye toward becoming more than just strangers — that is, among other things, with an eye toward becoming familiar enough that they would (whether or not it is their intention) become someone within the category of people familiar enough to be at a higher risk of committing rape.
The point of citing those comments was twofold: first, to demonstrate that even if the stranger isn’t going to rape right there, that doesn’t mean that they don’t have the capacity to make your life incredibly unpleasant right there, and while that isn’t the same as rape, it is something that makes the interaction something that it’s perfectly reasonable to want to avoid. Second, to illustrate the idea that the longer you engage with someone, the more their ability to harm you escalates. That being the case, it does not seem unreasonable for someone to decide that they don’t want the interaction to proceed at all, so that the risk never has a chance to escalate in the first place. I believe there is an account in one of the stories I linked of the victim giving her number to a person who accosted her in public because it was the only way she could think of to get him to stop pestering her. Once it had gotten to that point, even though nothing had happened except for interaction with a stranger in public, the victim at that point had to make a choice between giving away more personal information, increasing the level of risk, or having to deal with whatever this person’s reaction to rejection might be, pleasant or not.
Someone who engages you in a public place because they want to get to know you better is someone whose objective is to become familiar enough that they would be in the higher risk category. This may not be because they want to rape, but it does mean that if things go the way they are hoping, there’s a decent chance they may end up in a situation where they could if they wanted to.
Does that clear up the point I was trying to make?
Sorry about that, I saved the web page instead of Bookmarking it. When I checked back to see your reply I didn’t find one and my post was not visible either hence the comment on the bottom of the page. I didn’t realize at first it was just the method didn’t allow for the content to change. Anyway, I completely get what your saying. The logic works and yes, definitely do not associate with people that are not considerate. The logic Schrodinger Rapist employes is some of the most basic. All A are B, and some B are A. No two ways about it, the only point I was trying to make was one of perspective and using the real life statistics of violence to try and make that point. In reality the same logic can be applied to almost anything good or bad. Drawing comparisons to other points is necessary to give that perspective I feel is lacking from the Schrodinger’s Rapist discussion, that’s all. Never invite people into your life who are abusive, stranger or otherwise; those are just common sense things and good advice for any gender.
I am also beginning to have a hard time with the evolving definition of sexual assault. I firmly believe in severe and lasting punishments for anyone found guilty of sexually abusing another. The definition of abuse itself though is continually becoming more ambiguous. I viewed a website claiming that if I matched any of the criteria for assault I should notify the police immediately. I fit all of the instances of having been raped except being exposed to violence with a weapon. According to this website I should phone the police and report each and every one of my previous girlfriends for rape. So the question is; am I a victim of countless rape or did I just stay in bad relationships too long?
That depends on the circumstances and on the website. I agree with pretty much everything in the original Schrodinger’s rapist post, but I’m not necessarily going to agree with everything that every feminist is ever written about rape. It is certainly worth noting that cultural context will probably tend to make rape, on average, something easier for a man to accomplish with less pressure applied (There are a lot of cultural double standards surrounding women who get propositions versus men who get propositions, for example: http://researchtobedone.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/rude-bitch-vs-gay-panic-a-demonstrative-and-stupefying-contrast/ ), but that doesn’t in any way mean that a man can’t be sufficiently pressured into sex to the point that it could reasonably be called rape.
I would have to say I feel that I stayed in bad relationships too long. Have I woken up to someone preforming a sexual act on me? Yes. Have I had sexual acts preformed on me while intoxicated? Yes. Have I been pressured into sex when I didn’t want to? Yes. Have I agreed to sex just to end an argument? Yes. Have I been raped? No. I feel that is a powerful word and anyone guilty of the crime of rape should never see the light of day again. Would I see that punishment done to a previous girlfriend because of their actions definitely not. I am not putting these words into your mouth, I am just saying that this is some of whats out there and it may cause harm to innocent people.
Honestly, I’m not sure there’s any way I can speak to your individual situation without understanding a lot more than would be possible through this medium. It certainly sounds like there is a possibility that some of the situations you refer to would reasonably qualify as rape, but there is an enormous amount of context that would be necessary for me to say anything more than that. I certainly do not think that every instance of one person deciding to have sex even though they may not be super into it at the time, because their partner wants to is rape, but I absolutely think that there are contexts in which that would qualify as rape, depending on the circumstances.
I’m not sure this line of thought will really get us anywhere in the discussion though, since I’m not sure whether or not I agree or disagree with the “what’s out there” that you’re referring to. I don’t agree with everything every feminist has ever said, and I do think there are those who go overboard in their classifications of rape, though it must be said that I think it’s far, far more common for people to classify something that, to me, is obviously rape as not rape (see, for example, the Steubenville rape) than it is for people to classify something that isn’t rape as rape. In any event, for the purposes of this discussion, let’s stick with what’s in the Schrödinger’s rapist posts, or things we can use very concrete examples for.
It is off the subject of Schrodinger’s but I felt it was a point worth making. If you’ll forgive one more comment, you covered the point I was trying to make in your reply. To summarize, the questions in the post were the ones on the website defining rape. I fit all the criteria but one yet I have not been raped, the criteria are wrong. They are wrong for the reasons you spell out in your reply, “… there is a possibility… but there is an enormous amount of context that would be necessary for me to say anything more that that.” This was my point exactly. The “what’s out there” I was referring too is the expanding definition of rape. A definition that is becoming increasingly broad yet lacks the necessary distinctions of content which you speak of. Those distinctions, such as between regretting a drunken sexual act or having been raped while intoxicated, are important. Unfortunately such distinctions are seen as excuses made by a rape culture protecting it’s own. You are right, society is much more likely to ignore rape than punish it and you only have to rent porn to see that it is part of the culture; but you can’t fight wrong with crazy.
That makes sense, and you’re right that this is a tricky area. Personally, I think that pretty stringent standards should be applied in all cases, no matter the genders involved. I think that sex should be a case of strict liability — that it should be the responsibility of the person with more power in the encounter (which is usually, although not 100% always, men) to be sure that it is consensual. While I don’t think that every single case where any alcohol was drunk is always rape, I do think that “buyers remorse” is a lot less common than people tend to argue. It’s completely normal for someone to not be able to admit to themselves that what happened was rate for a period of time after the incident, for example.
Try this analogy: affirmative action. We know that we have culture that still contains a fair amount of racism, and we know that we need to address that racism directly, but as a stopgap measure, one of the things that we’re trying to do to counteract it is affirmative action. It is, in general, a clumsy, inexact solution to a difficult problem, but it’s one of the only ones we have. We know that racism pushes the likelihood-of-being-hired bar away from people of color, so we implement this other system to push it back in their direction. It’s not perfect, and it will result, sometimes, in more qualified people not getting positions that they applied for. But it will also result in the opposite – more qualified people getting positions that they are qualified for that they wouldn’t have gotten otherwise due to racism. In a similar way, in situations dealing with rape, I think there is a certain tendency to assume a greater responsibility for what happened in a given situation lies on men because, culturally, we are almost always the ones with more power, and therefore a greater ability to manipulate circumstances to enable us to rape if we wanted to. It’s not a perfect solution to the problem of having such a significant power imbalance, but it’s what we’ve got, and I think it’s probably the reason why these apparently inconsistent standards exist (even if few to no people have made this decision about differing standards consciously).
Anyway, complicated issue, but those are some of my rough thoughts.
After reading through the other comments and your replies it is obvious you are very thoughtful and articulate about these things. I would appreciate any reply. Both posts are things I’ve thought about for awhile and have yet to have adequately answered. Feel free to e-mail if you prefer.
Why did you delete my comment? Is the discussion over then?
Which comment? I haven’t deleted any of your comments as far as I know. What time did you post it, roughly?
At the moment, you are approved to get through moderation without my even being notified, so unless something’s gone horribly wrong, any of your comments past the very first one should’ve gotten through immediately.
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